Umpires

[yzarc]

In the woodside vs bethel game the umpires were at their best:eek: Coach Wheeler was caught in traffic due to a festival taking place at newport news park. He got there at the end of the first inning and was heading to go coach 3 base when the umpire told him he was restricted to the dugout because he was not at the meeting at home plate at the start of the game. wheeler argued and headed back to the dugout. The umpire followed him asking wheeler if he wanted to watch from the parking lot. Wheeler ignored him and stood at the dugout looking at him but not responding....the umpire shouted that about 4 more times and then proceeded to homeplate. All of this because the coach was 10 minutes late due to traffic and then tried to bait wheeler into arguing. The next inning the umpire called balk during a first and third situation. The runner at 1B left early and the pitcher stepped off and threw to 2B. When the pitcher stepped off the umpire behind the plate called balk, the play continued and the 2B umpire called the runner out @ 2B for the 3rd out. The umpires met and the home plate umpire said that it was not a balk he just thought it was a balk but the 2nd base umpire said it wasnt. The homeplate umpire said the 3rd out was made and it was the end of the inning. The balk call was made before the out at 2nd. Ball is dead once the umpire calls balk. Runner goes back to 1B play continues with 2 outs...the umpires are terrible and something needs to be done about it

[Take Pride in WOHS]

Yes we can all agree with you,
but there are times when you just have to put it behind you and keep on moving.

Play your best, the rest will follow

[KG123]

they can be bad in every sport.
but complaining does no good, if anything it causes more trouble.
i know if i was a ref or an ump and some kids just kept yapping at me id be worse on purpose.
so i mean, just try to play through it.

[Take Pride in WOHS]

Thats what you have to do. You cant pout and think thats going to help.. if you were raised like i was you would know that whining about everything doesnt get you anywhere.

You just have to Push through it or get to the back of the line.. complaining isnt going to get you anywhere.

[W-ward]

If Bethel won 18 - 5, then I really see no reason in even having this conversation, usually the losing team cries about umpires. :lol:

[Take Pride in WOHS]

Yea woodside lost. and lost pretty bad. but if you take away that horrible inning woodside would of only been down by one. the score being 5-4.

Woodside has more class than Bethel and that is a fact. They wont cry over umpire calls.

[yzarc]

What are you talking about? the reason the thread was started was not to whine...the discussion was about the incompetency of the umpires which has been a problem for the PD this year. How could some one whine when they won 18-5, not everything has to be trash talking, intelligent conversations can take place on this forum where people share their opinions and listen to others without trash talking.

[brothergus]

more class than bethel? i know coach hare and coach wheeler and let me tell you, coach hare doesn't shy away from any argument opportunity with the umpires (which i don't see anything wrong with). i think thats part of what makes those 2 guys two of the best coaches in the district. lets face it though: most of the umpires should be working little league games but what can you do:cool:

[tborze]

It amazes me how many people complain about officials.

When I was coaching, I learned and understood the rules. I understood that when an official makes a judgement call, it is just that, judgement. Sometime, their judgement may not have been that good, but there is no reason to question a judgement call.

As a coach(Manager), there is a difference, may make appeals or question a mis-interpretation of a rule. It is not ok for a coach to come out of the dugout screaming about a call he was 105' away from, or balls/strikes from 90'. Umpires don't come out screaming, "Why didn't you bunt him over coach?", "Why did you send him coach?", "You're the worst coach I've ever seen!" etc...

My point is, we all make mistakes. In the initial thread, there are ways to correct an error, or errors, made, by understanding the rules. By following proceedure, the situation could have been rectified by both umpires and coaches(Managers).

Umpires study and understand the rules. They take tests, attend clinics and weekly meetings. It is not just someone dressing up to come and call a baseball game. If that were the case, there would be a line at the door of parents and coaches;)

Understand, there are not alot of individuals willing to go through what umpires endure. We need umpires, so I challenge you to put yourself in those shoes. The demand for umpires has grown but the number of officials has not or has diminished. Umpires have to move up to accomodate the demand, so you get less experienced umpires during the transition. Realize, reading a rule and interpreting that rule and then making the call all in a matter of seconds, is not something you are born with. For some it comes more natural, but it takes the experience, combined with the knowledge, that allows you to continuously improve.

Base umpires make dozens of calls a game, safe/out, fair/foul etc... They are enforcing hundreds of rules a game, runners touching bases, INT, OBS, etc...

The same with Plate umpires, except they also see hundreds of pitches a game which they have to judge as balls/strikes, not to mention HBP, BOOO, BI, catchers OBS(INT) etc...

So if you think about it, the correct decisions made throughout a game greatly out-weigh the occassional, "That pitch was low Blue", or "You missed that one Blue".

"Being an official is the only occupation where you are 50% right, and 50% wrong, 100% of the time".

Contrary to belief, officials are human!:) They have feelings and emotions and all that gushy stuff, so when one's integrity or judgement is questioned, the natural response is to become defensive. So by trying to "show-up" an umpire as a coach, or complaining about one as a fan, is not the answer. Umpires, in general, do their best every time out, and are there because they love the game and are working hard all the time to provide a quality service for our student athletes.

How do I know, I am a PD HS Umpire!

[yzarc]

It amazes me how many people complain about officials.

When I was coaching, I learned and understood the rules. I understood that when an official makes a judgement call, it is just that, judgement. Sometime, their judgement may not have been that good, but there is no reason to question a judgement call.

As a coach(Manager), there is a difference, may make appeals or question a mis-interpretation of a rule. It is not ok for a coach to come out of the dugout screaming about a call he was 105' away from, or balls/strikes from 90'. Umpires don't come out screaming, "Why didn't you bunt him over coach?", "Why did you send him coach?", "You're the worst coach I've ever seen!" etc...

My point is, we all make mistakes. In the initial thread, there are ways to correct an error, or errors, made, by understanding the rules. By following proceedure, the situation could have been rectified by both umpires and coaches(Managers).

Umpires study and understand the rules. They take tests, attend clinics and weekly meetings. It is not just someone dressing up to come and call a baseball game. If that were the case, there would be a line at the door of parents and coaches;)

Understand, there are not alot of individuals willing to go through what umpires endure. We need umpires, so I challenge you to put yourself in those shoes. The demand for umpires has grown but the number of officials has not or has diminished. Umpires have to move up to accomodate the demand, so you get less experienced umpires during the transition. Realize, reading a rule and interpreting that rule and then making the call all in a matter of seconds, is not something you are born with. For some it comes more natural, but it takes the experience, combined with the knowledge, that allows you to continuously improve.

Base umpires make dozens of calls a game, safe/out, fair/foul etc... They are enforcing hundreds of rules a game, runners touching bases, INT, OBS, etc...

The same with Plate umpires, except they also see hundreds of pitches a game which they have to judge as balls/strikes, not to mention HBP, BOOO, BI, catchers OBS(INT) etc...

So if you think about it, the correct decisions made throughout a game greatly out-weigh the occassional, "That pitch was low Blue", or "You missed that one Blue".

"Being an official is the only occupation where you are 50% right, and 50% wrong, 100% of the time".

Contrary to belief, officials are human!:) They have feelings and emotions and all that gushy stuff, so when one's integrity or judgement is questioned, the natural response is to become defensive. So by trying to "show-up" an umpire as a coach, or complaining about one as a fan, is not the answer. Umpires, in general, do their best every time out, and are there because they love the game and are working hard all the time to provide a quality service for our student athletes.

How do I know, I am a PD HS Umpire!

What do you as an umpire do to become a better? Take a test, and a few clinics....that would be good for a veteran umpire, but what about umpires that have little to no experience at this level? There is also a time to use good common sense when making a call dealing with a situation. While there are some umpires that take pride in umping and there are some who want to do as little work as possible and get the money... there are umpires that have no business umping varsity games as well as the one umpire who makes it about himself. there are a few good umpires still left but the majority of the association are very weak. The coaches need to have an evaluation system in place so there voices can be heard. The umpire association that is used for the PD is laughed at by other associations. I have sat at games with umpires from other organizations and they laughed and joked about how terrible they are. If the umpires would take more pride in knowing the rules and making calls on the field than they do with checking helmets and bats we might be in good shape. Go ahead and say thats for safety reasons but when a PD umpire throws out 6 helmets at a game and then the next game the same helmets are put out and are considered to be fine by another umpire..whats the deal......the consistency among umpires is not there. So as fans and coaches, we have the right at this level to have quality umpires, and should demand nothing less.

[PurpleHaze]

What do you as an umpire do to become a better? Take a test, and a few clinics....that would be good for a veteran umpire, but what about umpires that have little to no experience at this level? There is also a time to use good common sense when making a call dealing with a situation. While there are some umpires that take pride in umping and there are some who want to do as little work as possible and get the money... there are umpires that have no business umping varsity games as well as the one umpire who makes it about himself. there are a few good umpires still left but the majority of the association are very weak. The coaches need to have an evaluation system in place so there voices can be heard. The umpire association that is used for the PD is laughed at by other associations. I have sat at games with umpires from other organizations and they laughed and joked about how terrible they are. If the umpires would take more pride in knowing the rules and making calls on the field than they do with checking helmets and bats we might be in good shape. Go ahead and say thats for safety reasons but when a PD umpire throws out 6 helmets at a game and then the next game the same helmets are put out and are considered to be fine by another umpire..whats the deal......the consistency among umpires is not there. So as fans and coaches, we have the right at this level to have quality umpires, and should demand nothing less.

So what's the answer? I'm not taking sides here, both tborze and yzarc make valid points (sounds like a Star Trek episode). I've seen good umps this year in the PD and some that seem like they are collecting a paycheck.

If the umps in the PD are perceived as the laughing stock, how can that be fixed?Umpires are a fixed quantity, doing a job that when the game is over, somebody and often everybody on the losing side blames for the loss. I don't know what they get paid, and I don't care, it just doesn't seem worth the aggravation. Pay more $$$ and get better umps, who foots the bill? Umpires are drawn to games by the convenience of getting to call games without much travel from home or work, or they're drawn to the $$$.

And umpires talk to each other...alot. Ever pass by two umps talking at their car after a game? Most times they are talking about the game. And they talk before the games. They know which coaches are prone to confrontation, which fans give the most lip, as well as which players are the real hot heads. Some umps pay attention to that and others do a great job of letting it all go before they walk on the field.

It's simple economics, supply, demand and the almighty dollar.

[tidewaterbaseballfan]

Umpires make more than coaches do and coaches spend way more time on the job. It's not about pay, it's about game times. Only pros can work as a full time ump and live off of it. These umps have other jobs. If you move game times back an hour, you have more people able to work.........Who's gonna do it? Who wants that job, especially with some of the stupidest fans in the stands. Your never right.

[Take Pride in WOHS]

What are you talking about? the reason the thread was started was not to whine...the discussion was about the incompetency of the umpires which has been a problem for the PD this year. How could some one whine when they won 18-5, not everything has to be trash talking, intelligent conversations can take place on this forum where people share their opinions and listen to others without trash talking.

im not bashing you, Im saying in general. I didnt say specifically that yzarc is a whiner did I? no. i just said that you just have to push through things at times and put it behind you. Whining doesnt help and that goes for everyone

[bbparent]

As a parent of a PD baseball player i know it is a tough job umpiring with the fans on your back Yes you are right 50% and wrong the other 50% of the time but when you have a certain ump who wants to make it all about him then I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH IT. He baits coaches and players so he can toss them. I have seen him in action for several years now. He never umps bases (because he would have to move) he is a disgrace to the PD. He gives the PD umps a bad name and rap. Ask the local College Coaches they do not use the PD because of him. He needs to go his time has run its course. The PD would be better off without him. I heard that their contract is up next yr and the AD's and Principals are considering going to the south side for umps(mainly because of him).It is a shame he will cost 30 - 40 people a side job they enjoy because he wants to be the SHOW.

[Pronk]

One word on umpires this year: Inconsistency

[sportsfan8]

As a parent of a PD baseball player i know it is a tough job umpiring with the fans on your back Yes you are right 50% and wrong the other 50% of the time but when you have a certain ump who wants to make it all about him then I HAVE PROBLEMS WITH IT. He baits coaches and players so he can toss them. I have seen him in action for several years now. He never umps bases (because he would have to move) he is a disgrace to the PD. He gives the PD umps a bad name and rap. Ask the local College Coaches they do not use the PD because of him. He needs to go his time has run its course. The PD would be better off without him. I heard that their contract is up next yr and the AD's and Principals are considering going to the south side for umps(mainly because of him).It is a shame he will cost 30 - 40 people a side job they enjoy because he wants to be the SHOW.

Do you ever say anything nice at all. Every post is the same crap. You compain about Menchville coaches, the players, parents and now the umpires. The way you complain I don't know how you can possibly point your finger at anyone else. Maybe you should ump....or better yet, maybe the coach should just step down and let you take over!

[WoHS Football]

One word on umpires this year: Inconsistency


definately agreed ive been to many games this year where strikes were called around the ankles and then the next half of the inning the same pitch is a ball yesterday was a good example of that McCan from warwick was pitching to woodsides mike ruckman and mccan threw a curve the catcher caught the ball with glove on the ground and was called a strike. i think the umpires really just need to pay more attention to the game. also yesterday the ump behind the plate asked for assistence from the ump in the field to help with a call, he asked if the batter went and the response was "OH! UHH! NO he did not go" sounds like he really didnt know what the call was. Another thing ive noticed this year is called outs of runners sliding into home ive seen woodside get robbed of a run twice this year when they were definately safe at home.

All i ask from umpires is to call a consistant fair game through all 7 innings and pay attention to what is really going on.

[tborze]

I just want to clarify something.

We are talking HS baseball, correct?

[yzarc]

Penninsula District Varsity baseball is what we are talking about and there are way to many mistakes being made

[tborze]

Penninsula District Varsity baseball is what we are talking about and there are way to many mistakes being made


I agree!

The number of errors, lack of pitching and poor coaching strategies have been numerous this year.

[yzarc]

funny .... the number of missed calls and poorly interpreted rules and the amount of umpires that are not ready to do varsity games are up this year also, and umpires that play by their own rules is up as well.....

[BBallFan007]

I agree with both sides..

The umpire situation won't improve unless game times are changed to allow more people the opportunity to become umpires.

Also, coaching in the district is crap. Fundamental baseball is nowhere to be found.:(

[chubby1]

I've seen about 16 games this year and to date have not seen a single Umpire error or missed call or misinterpretation of a rule result in a loss or win .

In other words, they miss a few, sometimes the strike in the top half is a ball in the bottom, I saw a few missed pick offs that were outs, even a couple of missed balk calls...but all in all not one boo boo resulted in the wrong team winning or losing.

Even the "evil ump" that has such a bad rep I observed...a bit of a drama queen but nothing wrong with his calling

[tborze]

I can only speak for myself. I do work hard at being the best I can be. There have been nights I woke my wife up at 1am while watching a MLB game, because I am calling the game "OUT!", "STRIKE" while looking in the mirror working on mechanics.lol But I'm anal!

But as hard as I work, and the years I have put in, I make mistakes. We learn everytime out. Umpires are people too and I just think we deserve a lil' more respect.

I am a father of two HS student athletes, and I teach my sons to adapt. It is a game and the officials are part of the variable. If they are calling hand-checks, don't hand-check, move your feet. If their strike zone is low, move up in the box.

I just feel we as parents get more involved than our own kids do. We should show them the correct path of sportsmanship and values, and all the good things that come out of playing HS sports such as, teamwork, respect, and most of all, FUN!

Next time you're at the ballpark, I hope you all enjoy the game!

[spartacus1]

Penninsula District Varsity baseball is what we are talking about and there are way to many mistakes being made

I agree!

The number of errors, lack of pitching and poor coaching strategies have been numerous this year.

Now that's funny!:rofl:

Thanks for your hard work and for stopping by the forum.

[yzarc]

For the umpires that give it their all and do the very best they can....my hats off to you! However there are way to many people that arent like that. Some of the umpires want to get out of the game as quick as possible. I personally heard an umpire tell a player this when he asked for time while he was at bat. The batter said time, the umpires reply nothing, the player asked again and the umpire replied "about 530" the player asked again and he said about 530" during all of this time the pitcher had yet to start his windup. Why was time not granted? The umpire also told the coach he couldnt put a player in the game because he was not on the line up card. Where did that rule come from...substitute players are not required on the line up card. This is not a bias e-mail, it sometimes makes me mad even when it works in the favor of the team i root for. I just want to see a good game, talking with the other umpire organization that does bay river games, they never have problems or complaints. The coaches over there even talk about the difference in organizations and how bad the PD umps are. What can be done about the problem you ask? Coaches and Umpires need to have a meeting to discuss the issues that are a concern. They could work together to find a solution and to voice the concerns of everyone. More evaluations done by the higher powers, and evaluations done by the coaches. Not for the purpose of dogging people but to highlight the areas that need work. The commisisoner can then provide the extra help to those umpires that need it.....it will also give the coaches a voice in the matter and will help everyone see each others point of view. Right now, the coaches cant talk to anyone about the umpires, the commisioner is the final word and he only sides with his umpires. I really do appreciate the umpires that act in a first class manner and do the right thing, if you are one of those guys Tborze, my hats off to you and I challenge you to talk with the other umpires and get them on the same page as you.

[chubby1]

Does anyone know what manual the PD umps use? The VHSL handbook doesn't specify which rule book to use (so if rules are being made up how does one challenge the ruling or lack of)

Just curious

[CoachA10]

I really do appreciate the umpires that act in a first class manner and do the right thing

Will the umpires get to evaluate the coaches, too? The coaches don't have a free pass to say or do whatever they want, either.

[tborze]

Will the umpires get to evaluate the coaches, too? The coaches don't have a free pass to say or do whatever they want, either.

Thank You Coach!

Understand, I am limited on what I should and shouldn't say.

I have tried, throughout my posts here, to give a little insight as to where I think the problem lies. And that is, there is no problem. A problem is something you solve. You can never solve human error. You can educate and train and get as much experience as possible, and you will still error. You may error less, but still error. Can you imagine if you used a computer for every pitch. The games would last forever. How many pitchers can hit the strike zone if it were computer generated.lol

CoachA10 brings up a good point. The thing is, we do get to evaluate the coaches every game. We evaluate you and then decide whether you get to stay or go! Lil' attempt at humor there!

I do agree and am all for coaches giving evals on umpires. After the game they say "good game" or don't!

I agree umpires need to be on the same page. Page 64, Rule 10
(you'll have to look it up yourself)

I agree things can be done to improve the game. Page 68
(")

But I will say, at least umpires study, take tests, get evaluated, go to clinics, and put up with getting the call right only 50% of the time.(50-50 rule)

But because you happen to be a science teacher or math teacher you get to...

Coaches will sometime request a certain official not do their games. Remember, umpires can do the same.

Wow, imagine, the reason you get less experienced officials is because the coach may have chased away all the more experienced ones??? HMMM

And yes our Commish sticks up for us, if he didn't, who else will!

I am not just commenting to you, yzarc, there are others who feel as you, and you make valid points.

We don't write the rules, we do our best to enforce them. There are rules in place to prohibit certain actions.

Ex: you mentioned "The batter said time, the umpires reply nothing, the player asked again and the umpire replied "about 530" the player asked again and he said about 530" during all of this time the pitcher had yet to start his windup. Why was time not granted?"

I must say, that is a good one, lol, I may have to use that 1! Anyway, to answer your question, you'll have to ask him. But you said it yourself, the pitcher "had yet to start his windup", what did he need time for?

And as far as the lineup card, I believe the rule changed from saying "shall" to "should" be listed.

Gotta keep up with all these rule changes!

One more thing, the hands are NOT part of the bat! :eek:

[yzarc]

The reason he needed time was because the pitcher was standing on the mound for 10-15 seconds, wind blew dust in eyes.....time should have been granted. Question, homeplate umpire has his hands up, pitcher steps off the mound and 2nd base umpire calls balk. Is it a balk? Last time I checked the hand being held in the air with palm facing out is time out.

[yzarc]

You said shall has been changed to should....I checked with the commisioners and they said substitutes are not required

[AllStar4Life]

One more thing, the hands are NOT part of the bat! :eek:



Yea i know this but as a umpire called on bethel in the BHS HHS game. The runner at first tryed to get back on a pickoff from bethel the runner never made it back to the base he landed it on the first basemans foot and when the first baseman showed the ump he said that his foot is a part of the base now ive been playing ball for a while now and this is never been a rule and it still isnt when will this area get better umps who actually know the rules.

[tborze]

The reason he needed time was because the pitcher was standing on the mound for 10-15 seconds, wind blew dust in eyes.....time should have been granted. Question, homeplate umpire has his hands up, pitcher steps off the mound and 2nd base umpire calls balk. Is it a balk? Last time I checked the hand being held in the air with palm facing out is time out.

You miss the point. Just step out of the box! And unless you are an umpire at that time, how can you say "time should have been granted"? Keep the ball alive, alot of things can happen, like a balk. See what happens when you call "time".lol

And as far as subs, Rule 1.1.2(1) states....the name and shirt number of each eligible substitute "should also be listed" (highlighted I might add because last year I think it said "shall")

Do I have to point out the difference between should and shall?

[yzarc]

Lets get to the root of the problem, the judgement calls...coaches cant argue judgement calls but there lies the problem. Watching baseball games for a long time now in the PD and elsewhere. Only in the PD do I see inconsistant strike zones, missed calls, etc. A lot of the time it is in the favor of the team Im rooting for...but that doesnt change the fact that they are terrible calls and quite frankly i get fed up watching the games. I really wonder what they are looking at sometimes and im not talking close plays and close pitches but a perfect pitch called a ball, a curveball bouncing on the plate called for a strike or a runner who is 3 steps pass the bag and is called out. How about the umpire who doesnt move to get into better position to see the play or the umpire who calls a player safe on a back base pick when the first baseman had the ball before the runner made an attempt to get back to the bag because the umpire wasnt paying attention. How about when one of the head umpires had to be told by the coach that the ball was foul and the runners had to go back, one of them being a run that scored. The list is endless and i am baffled at what they see. You might be an umpire albeit a good umpire, who knows, and dont take this personal but the majority of the umpires in the organization have no clue.....you can defend them if you want it makes no difference to me because I know what I see.....I also talk to very well respected people in the game who all agree that the PD umpiring is substandard.

[tborze]

One more thing, the hands are NOT part of the bat! :eek:



Yea i know this but as a umpire called on bethel in the BHS HHS game. The runner at first tryed to get back on a pickoff from bethel the runner never made it back to the base he landed it on the first basemans foot and when the first baseman showed the ump he said that his foot is a part of the base now ive been playing ball for a while now and this is never been a rule and it still isnt when will this area get better umps who actually know the rules.

WHO is your english teacher?